Got the following note from Twin Cities, MN commercial freelancer Megan Tsai (www.RedWagonWriting.com), who thought it might make a good blog post. At first, I didn’t think so, as it wasn’t about commercial writing, but the idea grew on me, and I starting seeing the potential for a good discussion. She wrote:
I sometimes take on assignments for a low-paying national magazine with high production value because I enjoy the work and the clips look great in my portfolio. Typically I take the photos myself or allow the publisher to select stock photos, but because I know the value of these clips and have no use for national photo credits myself, I thought I’d offer the opportunity to a local freelance photographer. As you discuss in your book, many freelancers get their start by doing non-paying work.
I posted a quick ad on Craigslist, explaining this would not be a paid assignment, but would result in some high-quality clips for a freelancer just getting started. I asked that anyone interested shoot me an email with a link to their portfolio. Within minutes, my post had been flagged and removed, and several angry responses posted (the site is self-policing, so it was the freelancers who had it removed, not Craigslist itself). At the same time, I received three emails from interested photographers and dozens of hits on my Web site. So the question becomes, is it fair to deprive fellow freelancers of the opportunity to complete non-paying work, or should this decision be left to the individual?
My take? Megan, you’re right. They’re wrong. I’m a libertarian at heart, believing that people should be free to take or not take work, and no one should dictate the conditions under which that happens. You offered a “free market transaction”: people were free to respond or not, and for others to attack you and move to remove your post note, was wrong.
Those applauding the freelancers’ decision to silence you think they’re “standing up for the rights of creative practitioners to be paid what they’re worth” as if you were forcing them to work for nothing. Instead, as you pointed out, what they were doing was indeed depriving freelancers who wanted to exercise their right to do non-paying work (to build their book and reputation) to do so. And in this case, even more so, because it wasn’t as if the publication was going to pay a photographer “market” rates for the gig.
That decision should be no one’s to make but a given freelancer. Yes, I understand the philosophy that says, “If you encourage the idea of working for free, you cheapen the value of what any practitioner in that field does.” Arguably true, but still not your decision to make for someone else. And not compelling enough in my books to make that decision “for the good of the industry” under the guise of protecting rights. Obviously, those people who responded positively to your ad didn’t feel they needed anyone else’s protection.
As I see it, is there any substantive difference between what they did and, say, removing an ad for a TV you had offered for $50 that they thought should have been worth $200? For those who’d say, “That’s different,” I’d ask “How so?” Whether a TV or someone’s time, you’re still deciding for someone else what the value of that thing is, and that’s not your decision to make. And, yes, the same would go for commercial freelancers willing to work for free or for far less than their competitors. I don’t like to see it, but it’s their right to decide, not mine. And until this economy improves, we’re likely to see more and more of this.
Granted, for most established commercial writing practitioners, we’re not likely to find too many newbies beating us out on sophisticated commercial writing projects (e.g., brochures, ad copy, direct mail, case studies, etc.) by working for free or for $25 an hour (they’re more likely to operate on online writing job sites and in the online article writing realm), but I’m still interested in hearing people’s take on this.
Your thoughts on this subject?
Have you had any similar experience of being on either side of a situation like this?
Where do you draw the line between individual’s rights and the “greater good of the industry”?
I have to say, it’s a fine line. While I do believe that working for low- or no pay can have benefits under the right circumstances, I feel that the majority of posts on CL asking for writers/designers/etc. to do work for exposure are bad opportunities. I usually get angry when I see the number of such posts on Craigslist.
But I wouldn’t take away another writer’s right to apply for those opportunities.
But the only way for writers to know which opportunities are worthwhile is to have all the info upfront. Megan did say she said in the ad that she said it was an unpaid opportunity, but I wonder if she also mentioned exactly which magazine the pics were for. Having that name on the ad would, to me, distinguish it as a genuninely good opportunity, and not one of those worthless scams.
I had a very similar experience of having my posting for unpaid intern work removed from craigslist–twice. If you state upfront the position is not-for-pay but instead for the exposure/experience/credits/references, it’s unfair to deny freelancers the opportunity to take it.
Understand about devaluing work. But since volunteer work makes the other half of the world go round–and our new president is calling upon all of us to more of it–consider the idea of having a volunteer section on craigslist. That way the angry protesters won’t have to waste their time and energy reading, deleting, and attacking.
After all, everyone’s time is precious, and each of us has the right to decide how we will invest it.
I’m not sure how to react that scenario. There are some places that want writers to crank out news items for $25 a pop (and gain “exposure” or “experience” rather than actual decent pay), but most of us in the writing community consider this an abomination. Now here we are talking about a photographer doing work for zero pay. It seems like the same lousy deal, but who knows, maybe for a photographer, name recognition and photo credits are a valuable thing.
Though I have no clean-fit experience with this type of situation, it echoes the unpaid time vs. potential benefit analysis involved in deciding whether to prepare elaborate, detailed proposals (not template-style quickies) — particularly as a subcontractor. Different than what Megan Tsai describes, but stay aboard this parallel track.
My “project associate” (aka FLCW) work with PR, ad and management consulting agencies occasionally brings invitations to participate in new-biz pitches . . . off the books. When work flow permits, I contribute strategy memos, benchmarking research, message point drafts — as a client good will gesture and biz dev investment. If the stars align perfectly and my handlers land the account, I roll partial time into first invoice as ‘Project Scoping’ or ‘Discovery.’ Or not.
Depending on the depth and breadth of these spec donations, there’s nagging awareness that I’m providing no-cost help to salaried or equity-stake insiders . . . with just visions of maybe-payback dancing in my head. The “are you nuts?” inner voice got louder when a training manual proposal involved meeting time, conference calls and redrafting over parts of two weeks. Job went to another agency. Reimbursement: Zip. Fair/unfair?
Same answer as Peter’s (promised this’d swing back around): It IS fair if I’m willing to do it.
No one ever comes close to implying it’s a requirement to continue my relationship with the agency, so I see it as a value-added way to gain knowledge and show abilities from the start of prospective engagements . . . when time allows.
One needn’t be a novice commercial shooter to see value in that equation.
It has been interesting to read everyone’s thoughtful responses on this issue, thanks!
To answer Caitlin’s question, I did include the name of the publication in the post. I won’t do it here, but I will say it is a national bi-monthly fitness publication with a circulation of more than 100,000 that always features a celebrity cover story.
I agree, Caitlin, that the quality of the publication certainly matters in this situation. I’m sure it would never have occurred to me to post this offer if the publication was, say, a free community newspaper or a magazine with a low production value.
I agree that it should be up to the individual whether they want to take on a non-paying gig or not, but with so many postings for low-paying or work-for-free job opportunities on craigslist, I can also see where people might be upset.
Unfortunately, it takes more and more time to search through craigslist and sort out legitimate jobs from the scams(not that your posting was a scam, but there are so many posted these days). Including as much information about the project as possible would definately help people determine that the ad is legitimate.
Also, was the ad posted under the Jobs section or the Gigs section? This makes a difference because the Gigs section is typically for low-paying/non-paying/volunteer gigs. Offering an oppportunity like this in the Gigs section might reduce suspicion – you would also be reaching more people just starting out rather than those more experienced who may be offended by low-paying/non-paying jobs.
Good stuff, all of you. I did see some of you getting into the relative value or non-value of the opportunities in question, and I certainly understand the importance of distinguishing between good, “heart-in-the-right-place” free gigs (like Megan’s) and those from mooches trying to get something for nothing. But, again it comes down to what Alan said above: It IS fair if you’re willing to do it. As I like to call it, “The Las Vegas Rule” applies in all these situations: Don’t invest anything you’re not willing to lose.
And as Alan also points out, by offering up unpaid extras to good clients, you cement your relationship with them as a true partner, not a vendor. I’m guessing that’ll more than compensate him over time.
And yes, Rick, the idea of $25 for a news item IS an abomination for most of us, but that’s a completely separate issue. As a serviceable analogy from a completely different realm, I’m reminded of the situation some years back when the ACLU actually defended the right of the Ku Klux Klan to march in Skokie, IL, where hundreds of survivors of the Nazi concentration camps lived. The very idea was horrendous, and yes, an abomination. But, in a country where free speech is a sacred right, if we were to be intellectually honest, we had to admit it was the right thing, even if we also had to hold our noses while doing so.
I think this is an important point to drive home, because it gets at the fundamental difference between principle and preference. Sometimes, preferences (e.g., “I’d never do a news story for $25”) seem so self-evident and so “right” that we have no qualms about making it the accepted policy for everyone. When in fact, a larger principle, in this case, the freedom to choose one’s own path in life, trumps any preference. And all you have to do is look at the history of Communism, Nazism, and in present day, coercive religious fundamentalism to see the wholesale assertion of preference over principle. Thank goodness we live in a place where that’s not the case. Yet, it doesn’t keep many in this country from trying to foist their vision of the world on others.
AND I’m straying far from the issue. But, I guess that’s the amateur philosopher in me… 😉
PB
I had a brief conversation on Twitter w. an established writer about article sites like ezinearticles.com. He said not to use original work. I have a online column that are mostly essays. I repurpose those columns for shorter articles, just so I can establish a portfolio and get some traffic.
I had an unpaid article on Beliefnet just because they have a million eyes. The more hits I get the better my chances for a future paid gig with them.
I think the advantages of unpaid gigs is working out the kinks in your work. The other side is knowing when you are being taken advantage of.
I was laid off in November. I had planned to leave my job in October of ’09 after putting away money and establishing a portfolio. So now I must scramble a bit and may have to take work that I might not have considered before.
Yes, Peter. Just as many are holding their noses when competent individuals in other countries are eagerly accepting web design, writing, customer service, and hundreds of other work opportunities for a fraction of what most U.S. citizens would accept. In a free marketplace, as in a free country, the law of supply and demand says that if the provider wants to work for cheap, and the customer is willing to accept the quality the cheap price buys, there is little anyone can do to fight it—except look for customers who demand more and are willing to pay for it.
Then, of course, there’s the issue of favoritism and prejudice—who actually gets the better opportunities. But that’s way off the topic!
Wow, talk about value-added! PB’s tangential reflections ^ elevate a useful tactical discussion into a stimulating reminder of freedom vs. coercion differences.
Thank goodness we have a blog where this is how FLCWs examine their craft, their business models . . . and much more.
One note on volunteerism. I recently had a publisher of a small for-profit publication read one of my articles and ask me to write a similar one for his publication. When I told him my rate, he said, “Oh, should have told you. We don’t pay. If you’d like to be charitable…” What I wanted to say (but didn’t) was that I’m very charitable, donating my time and money to causes I deem important. However, why would I do so to a profit-making business? So let’s not confuse volunteerism and charity for nonprofits with paid businesses asking for freebies. Not the same!
PB’s comments about TV were interesting to me because my first career was radio. Because our radio station had a format where organizations paid for airtime, we could charge less for ads compared to your typical music station that was typically ad driven. But other stations didn’t complain about our rates. After all, it was just business and every station did what they needed to do to survive. And they did everything they could to get an edge on the competition. There was never a thought that you had to charge a certain rate “for the greater good.”
Same thing applies to the software industry, my second career. Take financial software. You can spend under $40 for a software package or spend hundreds. The people charging hundreds aren’t taking the lower-priced companies to task saying they have to raise prices for the greater good of the industry. They simply compete based on features or their target market.
Imagine owning a sandwich shop and being approached by other shops in the area telling you that your sandwich prices are too low. It would be silly to think you owe the sandwich industry anything in terms of setting some “fair market” price. You’re in business for yourself and you make decisions that are best for your survival.
And in my neighborhood, within a block there’s a high-priced grocery store and one of those bargain basement grocery stores. Both are full of people.
Unfair comparisons, you say? Not at all when you’re looking at it how it should be looked at: as a business.
Over here in the “creatives” world, there is this feeling among some that we’re all in this together and must never do anything to hurt our colleagues from charging whatever _they_ happen to think is fair. For them, “the greater good” is primary because they feel threatened in some way by people who charge less than expected.
But you have to ask why other industries (like the ones I mentioned and many more) don’t look at it the same way. I tend to believe it’s because lots of freelancers take issues like this too personally, are dealing with some level of fear, and don’t approach things like a typical business would.
Freelancers often think of their market as that old “piece of the pie” situation where, if you’re offering something for free or too low, you’re getting their piece. They fail to realize that in this big world, there are many pies to get your fingers into.
Recently I explained this to someone as the people who do things for a low rate and the people who want low rates being off in their own sandbox. That’s a good thing. It’s unlikely I’m going to convince someone with a low to non-existent budget to hire me, so I want those people to have a place to go. I’ll be off over here in a different sandbox with different clients. The folks charging less aren’t affecting me to any noticeable degree. (And if they are, that’s my problem.)
I hope this doesn’t come out wrong, but my feeling is that people who get up in arms in places like Craigslist are people who are struggling to get by. The successful folks generally don’t have time to take other people to task like that, nor do they even really care because they understand there is a need for creatives at all levels of the pay scale.
They focus on controlling the things they can control and they don’t worry about the things they can’t. (Hmmm… where have I heard that before? lol)
Great discussion. That’s what I love about this blog – starts in one place and ends up in a much richer one…
And yes, G.M., I’m with you about not feeling compelled to offer up freebies to for-profit companies. A few years back, I helped out a client (well, let’s be frank: he’d hired me to do one brochure for him) with copy for a website for a charity function he was organizing, and not even a very societally-beneficial one at that…). I did it as a favor because I thought I’d get his web site rewrite business, which he’d been threatening to do forever. Never happened. Kept putting me off. Won’t make that mistake again.
And Mike, thanks for cutting to the quick, as always. I absolutely agree that those folks who are successful aren’t going to waste one nanosecond attacking those asking for freebies or working for little or no pay. There are many levels of clients, as Barbara echoes as well, and like Mike, I’m glad to know that someone is taking care of them. Keeps those clients off our radar screen and those writers out of our way. And yes, Mike, once people truly get the power of “control what you can control, and forget the rest,” life gets simpler…
PB
My gripe is with respected blogs and websites that aggregate Craigs ads and put on trash–thus legitimizing it and giving the advertiser more exposure. Sue me, that’s how I feel. I feel people should perform some pro-writer educational function–if an advertiser comes to them directly and is offering $2 a story, say, “We have a lot of professional and well-trained writers here and I have to tell you I don’t list below $50, or $150,” or whatever. But it’s a free country, and most of these owners don’t do that–there is one that I know of. As for dolling up the ad by calling it an “internship,” what does this intern get? College credit? A chance to serve you by giving up their copyright or pub rights is not enough. I know–throw rocks…this whole profession is circling, people…
Take it for what it’s worth–another site kicking this around…
https://freelancewritinggigs.com/2009/01/26/how-to-gain-freelance-writing-respect/
Personally, I didn’t like the crack about freelancers being thought of as lazy, but as everyone says–free country.
Here’s another perspective on the working for free issue:
https://shiftingcareers.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/when-to-work-for-free/
Juicy, juicy.. 😉 Great article links. I did have a bit of a problem with a line in Deb’s piece (the freelancewritinggigs article)that read: “More and more folks expect a lot of work for nothing or next to nothing.”
Writing buyers are NOT the problem. They can expect anything they want, and by definition, they’re always going to be looking for the most for the least. ANY consumer of ANY product or service will be doing that to a certain extent. The only reason they expect a lot of work for nothing or next to nothing is because they know there are plenty of cheap resources out there. Which, as we’ve established, is the way of the world, and the right of those folks, no matter how misguided, to do so.
I’m ALL for raising someone’s consciousness so they DO start expecting more (and I’m gratified that my WFW books have had plenty see the light…), but until that person comes to that epiphany (AND has the talent to demand higher rates – KEY condition), it’s not my job to forcibly raise that consciousness.
PB
Thought provoking as always.
Mike’s example hits home because my wife works for one of those pricey grocery stores, and even in this economic climate their sales continue to grow. Being parked in the same shopping center with a Super-Cheapy-Mart hasn’t hurt their business at all.
Her company knows they can’t compete on price, so they don’t attempt it. They’ve built their reputation on providing a clean, friendly, courteous shopping experience. The business has grown by aggressively courting a client base that appreciates the value-added aspects of a pleasurable shopping experience. And their faithful are fiercely loyal.
I wonder how many freelancers could “move up” in clientele simply by accentuating their value-added benefits. Writing experience, sales experience, marketing savvy, a top-drawer network of creative professionals to provide turn-key marketing solutions – all value-added, and if presented properly, worth more to the right clients.
Those choosing to promote their services via craigslist and various freelance work sites are fishing among many lines cast for a few small fish. I’d rather cast my line in deeper waters with tastier bait, and not be forced to catch a million minnows to go home with a pound of meat. Nothing against those on craigslist, as was said before, they should feel free to play in their sandbox.
I was just rejected for a elance job because my rate was too high. Even though I took the middle ground of what they were offering. I know there is a method to this madness but why state you’re willing to pay up to a certain price but then condemn the person who comes in halfway to your price?
I keep hearing about people making lots of money on the sites but have not gotten one gig. I look at rates and bids and try to be competitive. Very frustrating.
Sandra,
I think I can say with a pretty fair measure of assurance that most of the folks weighing in on this post don’t go anywhere near the online job sites. If your goal is to maximize your income, they’re basically a total waste of time. Sure he stated a high end of what he’d be willing to pay, but only if he didn’t get lower quotes. As soon as he did (and on those sites, you can pretty much count on a lot of low-ballers), even a quote that’s half of his high end was obviously too high. The only way to make decent money as a writer is to pull yourself out of that bidding environment and start approaching companies directly.
In the NYT piece referenced above, the writer Michelle Goodman summed up that sentiment with this line: “Better to invest your time cultivating relationships the old-fashioned way: by getting to know other business owners and independent professionals. I’d rather submit a solicited bid to a company I’ve taken the time to sniff out than cozy up to one that’s crowdsourcing.” Amen to that.
Gotta say it: if you’re ready to make a decent living as a writer, and you haven’t checked out my books, I invite you to do so at https://wellfedwriter.com/books.shtml.
PB
Thanks Peter,
I can’t tell you have many people have told me I could make money from these sites. I don’t mean 10,000 dollar type but some money. I have posted ads on Craigslist, elance, Odesk and Ki-work. Each site (except Craigslist) takes a bit of time to register and pass tests to even have a fighting chance. I looked over the ads and bids and thought how could you make any money. Yet again I hear of someone who made $500 this week out of the gate.
When I am in a dire financial position because of the sudden layoff I am looking for the patch that will stave the flow while I build my foundation. I do have a base with my site and ecourse but not enough to be called a living right now.
I do have your books. I am taking them off the shelf now.
I use Craigslist on a frequent basis. It takes a lot of searching, but you can sometimes find a diamond in the rough. I just view it the same way I do cold-calling–it’s just me putting in some legwork so that the universe can return it to me. While I don’t always find great gigs there, I often find that after doing some searching I will get a gig seemingly out of nowhere.
I’m not a flagger–I just don’t have time to care once I see that I won’t get paid–but one of the reasons that these ads do get flagged is that they are posted in the paying jobs section as opposed to “Gigs” or “Volunteers”. It does give me heartburn to see some “startup” magazine wanting free writing for its pages. I always want to email them and ask them if they thought it would be fair for me to have a “startup” shoe store and expect Nike to send me free shoes just until I start making some money? But I don’t email them because I’m too busy making a living.
The Golden Pencil blog also wrote about this subject just yesterday: https://thegoldenpencil.com/2009/01/29/writing-for-free-does-it-ever-make-sense/
Thanks Caitlin,
I’m going to run on over there and drop a quick comment in there leading back to here… 😉
PB
Personally, I think you’re using the point, Peter. You use Craiglist because it’s free. That’s cool – but then it’s equally cool for others to use the system to, in essence, cancel out your low-price offer with guerilla tactics because they feel you are lowering the market value of their services. If you don’t like it, you can pay for an ad where you have complete control over the message. To me, what happened is simply the essence of the Internet. You have a choice of control or price, but not both.
One last point. The person, in question, posted their ad in employment. Inherently, employment requires pay. People are entirely within their rights, according to the Craigslight system, of labeling as “misclassified” an “employment offer” which does not pay. So the question isn’t philosophically whether it’s OK to work for free to create creative samples. It’s more about whether the posting was misclassified, since someone seeking free services is not offering employment
I have been on both sides of this issue. I have written over 300 articles and over 50 book reviews. I make more money for my book reviews than I did for some 500 word original content, able to pass copyscape ghost written articles. The pay I received was an insult to newbies.
Those types of jobs are still available, but I will not take them. I don’t care if I never get a job again, I will not accept less than half a cent per word for my time. That is just me. If someone else wants to, that is up to them.
I agree that it is up to the individual, but at what point does that lower the rates for the profession of freelance writer? I wish I knew. Bidding sites, job sites, internships, all of these can lead to low pay or no pay.
Personally, I will not go there. I know that my rates are not high, but there are to people looking of high quality at less than what a newbie should be paid in my opinion.
Thanks Joe,
And to clarify, it wasn’t me using Craigslist. But you’re right (as someone else pointed out), their reaction was likely because she posted in the wrong place, and that’s valid. Still, as you can see by the above comments, the original scenario spawned a rich discussion that moved far beyond the particulars of that original situation. And that’s always my goal with the blog. Thanks for weighing in!
And RJ, you’ve gotta draw your line somewhere, and glad you have. But, read my #20 comment. Most of the folks on this board are working on a much higher financial plane of freelancing – the “commercial” field. Here’s to having you join us there!
PB
As we have been saying….
https://writersweekly.com/this_weeks_article/005184_02042009.html
Even us oldies get skunked sometimes. Agreed to do a piece for a woman in Canada who was starting an anti-aging website. Back and forth–cut her a break of $350 for 700 words, two sources. Half of my usual…After the customary back and forths with her, getting the people, interviewing etc, oh, she is not sure she can pay–why am I more than everyone else…well, maybe…No….on and on. So now I am stuck with the research–and the place I was sure would want it…Learned today–went under.